Chemical Collective

Unknown Speaker 0:00
This is a Kun V studios original program.

Unknown Speaker 0:03
The content of this program does not reflect the views or opinions of 91.5 jazz and more the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, or the Board of Regents of the Nevada System of Higher Education. You

Unknown Speaker 0:20
oxygen.

Unknown Speaker 0:27
Welcome to another episode of the chemical collective.

Unknown Speaker 0:30
The chemical collective offers you your weekly dose of Drug Facts while dispelling fiction. Today we're

Unknown Speaker 0:35
talking about the psychoactive fly agaric mushroom, Amanita muscaria, a fungus that you've probably seen in all things pop culture, but which also has a very rich history of medicinal and spiritual use.

Unknown Speaker 0:47
I am Dr Dustin Hines. I'm

Unknown Speaker 0:48
Missy Bothwell,

Unknown Speaker 0:49
and I'm April Contreras. So I'm really excited about today's episode on the fly garlic mushroom. It's really an iconic tooth toadstool with that I see really everywhere, like on T shirts, jewelry online. So with that in mind, I didn't even actually know what fly agaric was until a few years ago. Dr Hines, can you give me a general overview of what it is and what it looks like? Okay,

Unknown Speaker 1:12
maybe I'm dating myself, but you didn't ever place Super Mario Brothers.

Unknown Speaker 1:16
I still didn't know what it was back then. Okay,

Unknown Speaker 1:17
well, that's the mushroom we're talking about today. So fly agaric mushroom, scientifically known as like Missy said, Amanita muscaria is very well known as a psychoactive compound, and it belongs to the genius Amanita you mentioned earlier that it's famous for its iconic appearance. It typically has a bright red orangish kind of cap with those little white spots. And if you ever look at them up close, they kind of look like gross warts, fuzzy, textured, yeah, all across it. So if you think of mushrooms, these are the mushrooms on Nintendo, as I said, where you eat one and then get superpowers. The cap can be convex when young and then flattening out when it gets older. They can be up to about eight to 20 centimeters. So that's about six inches across, quite big. Underneath the cap, the gills are white and seem attached to the stem. And the stem is a white, pale, bulbous, typical mushroom shape. And then there's a skirt ring that's the little kind of like, if you think of a mushroom cloud, the little thing around the base, the annulus. And so the base of the stem is a characteristic swollen shape SAC, like structure shown in remnants of the mycology, or study of fungi called the Universal veil. Okay, so really, what we're talking about here is your average Super Mario, red topped white spot mushroom.

Unknown Speaker 2:38
Okay. Seems like once you see one, you wouldn't really miss it. You know definitely what it was. But I haven't come across any of these in the desert or in Nevada. Where does fly garden? You

Unknown Speaker 2:50
come across any mushrooms in the desert?

Unknown Speaker 2:54
Yeah, no.

Unknown Speaker 2:55
So when I lived in Vancouver, Pacific Northwest, these grew everywhere, and the restaurants don't pick the mushrooms, so I think they need a wet climate. There are mushrooms in the desert, but yeah,

Unknown Speaker 3:05
fly agork is commonly found in northern hemisphere forests, particularly under coniferous and deciduous trees like pines, spruces, birches. These mushrooms form my car is all associations with the roots of trees, exchanging nutrients in a mutually beneficial relationship in rich organic soil. The Fly agar is widespread across central and northern Europe, from the British Isles to Scandinavia in Russia. It also grows in Japan and parts of China. While it's not native to the southern hemisphere, Amanita muscaria was introduced to Australia and New Zealand, where it now grows under imported pine and birch trees. In North America, Amanita muscaria is commonly found in northern and mountainous regions across Canada and the US. It's prevalent in the Pacific Northwest, growing in the forests of Oregon, Washington and British Columbia and the east coast from Maine down to the Appalachian Mountains. Spring through Autumn is the prime season for emanated muscaria. That's where you see the most in colder climates, they often emerge in late summer and continue to fruit into autumn, particularly after periods of rainfall like Dr Hines was saying, they're like wet climates, they tend to appear in small groups, sometimes in the famous fairy ring formation, where mushrooms will grow in a circular pattern a result of their underground mycelial network expanding outward. So

Unknown Speaker 4:26
the fly agaric is steeped in folklore, but before we dive into that, what are the psychoactive constituents of fly agaric? So how are these mushrooms different than the ones on my dinner table? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 4:36
well, they're very different. And usually these things are going to come down to alkaloids. And in the case of Amanita muscaria, the fly agark, there's two key compounds. One is ibitinic acid, and the other is Musca Mal. So ibitinic acid, this is the bad part of these. These are toxins. They're poisonous, and they act as a neurotoxic compound that releases a whole bunch of glutamate, glutamate. It's responsible for learning in your brain, but it's also responsible for neurotoxicity and cell death. So when you over activate glutamate, you get a situation called excitatory neurotoxicity. So this really can lead to overstimulation, over citation, excitation the neurons, and when ingested ibitinic acid can also cause a range of all kinds of effects, including confusion, distortions. However, this ibitinic acid isn't the primary psychoactive agent. It really is the other one we're talking about, muskomal. And muskomal can be converted from ibitinic acid and has most of the psychoactive effects. And there's a famous paper by Jukes L from 1965 looking at ibotinic acid and muscomes, the two toxic components at Amanita Musk Mal is the main psychoactive compound, and it really acts on GABA a receptors, meaning it binds and activates that receptor for the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA, so this results in a depressing activity in the nervous system when coupled with some of the other components, excitation leads to the psychoactive experience. This experience is different than other psychedelics. It includes euphoria, sensory perception, vivid dreams. So people will typically take these compounds and then at night report, fairies and all kinds of things visiting them in their dreams. And this also has a sedative effect that can also change mood. Some

Unknown Speaker 6:31
other minor compounds in flygaric include muscazone and muscarina. Muscazone is formed from ibotinic acid through photochemical reactions, meaning it can develop when the mushroom is exposed to light. It likely contributes to the mushrooms overall psychoactive profile in very minor ways, and its role in the experience produced by Amanita muscaria is not fully understood the other one I mentioned, muscarina is a well known alkaloid that acts as a muscarinic acetylcholine receptor agonist, so it activates that acetylcholine receptor It was first discovered in Amanita muscaria and played a critical role in the characterization of central and peripheral cholinergic neurotransmission. Contrary to popular belief, actually, it's present in only very small amounts in fly agaric and it's not responsible for the psychoactive effects. Its contribution is more associated with potential toxicological symptoms, rather than the hallucinogenic or dissociative experiences.

Unknown Speaker 7:31
So flygark Seems like a magical mushroom, but you didn't mention serotonin. So what's the key difference between flyagarhic and psilocybin containing mushrooms?

Unknown Speaker 7:42
Yeah, I was really surprised when I when I found out it didn't work on serotonin, despite the psychoactive properties Amanita muscaria primarily, it doesn't affect the serotonin system. As such, the experience produced by flag dark are more hypnotic or dissociative in nature, rather than the classic trippy or introspective effects that are associated with serotonergic psychedelics like psilocybin and LSD. Way more GABA,

Unknown Speaker 8:09
I've actually heard a lot of stories about how Amanita muscaria has been used. So now that we've kind of talked about how epitanic acid and musk will affect the brain, can you tell me how that relates to the folklore surrounding the mushroom? So what are some of the cultural uses and preparations of flygark? This

Unknown Speaker 8:27
is one of my favorite topics. So the flyer garlic mushroom has a rich, rich, rich cultural history, especially in Scandinavia, northern Eurasia, where it's been used for 1000s of years for spiritual, shamanic and medicinal contexts. And so while it's psychoactive, properties are central to many of the uses. The role varies from region to region, obviously, but in Siberia, Siberian shamanism, it's one of the most well known regions where flygard is used. And in this practice, indigenous tribes such as the coriac and the chuqui and even the Venki people use this mushroom to induce altered states of consciousness during shamanic rituals and religious ceremonies. In these ceremonies, often things are involved, such as vision quests or communication with spirits from the past. There's also ritualistic consumption, where fly agaric is typically dried and then ingested to reduce its toxicity. And many, many tribes, and this sounds gross, but it's common in many, many cultures, practice urine drinking, when the urine of a person who's consumed the fire garlic is then drunk by others, and then the psychoactive compounds remain, but then all of those nasty, toxic things are metabolized. There's also connection in North mythology, although this seems a little controversial because it could be just normal cubensis magic mushrooms, but the theory is often debated, that the Norse berserkers, fierce Viking warriors, would take trance like drugs and then. Go on some of their raids. My favorite part of this is good old Saint Nick influences on Santa Claus. And the reason that, you know, the Santa has this big red and white kind of hat and outfit comes from the Argar mushroom itself. And at the time, Sabir and shamans would collect and dry the mushrooms, then deliver them as part of the winter solstice, right around when we celebrate Christmas. And they would be dressed in red clothing, like the mushroom itself. And then they would enter through the tents and homes, through a small hole in the yurt the chimney, symbolically mirroring what Santa does nowadays. And at the time, those same cultures would typically tend to reindeer, and they would have the reindeer eat the Amanita and then drink their urine. And at the same time, they believed that the Amanita would make the reindeer be able to fly. So a lot of what we get from our modern day kind of Christmas Santa mythology really comes from this Siberian shamanism with Amanita, and that's just fascinating to me, because I didn't learn that till I was much older in life and maybe didn't have as much of a belief. Spoiler alert, in Santa Yeah. And

Unknown Speaker 11:11
then in European folk traditions, the fly agark was not only used for its psychoactive effects, but in some medicinal context too. So in Eastern Europe, small amounts of the mushroom were used in ointments or poultices for treating physical ailments like joint pain or skin conditions, as it was believed to have analgesic and antimicrobial properties when applied topically, it was also sometimes associated with fly catching practices, as pieces of the mushroom would be placed in milk to attract and kill flies, which is where the name fly guard comes from. It's also possible that the mushrooms were being fermented in the milk to allow for the conversion of i botinic acid, acid to Musk all and then fly agar has really become an enduring symbol in western folklore and fairy tales, as we have it in magic, in Super Mario, which is where I first saw it, too. It's often linked to magic, enchantment and mystery. It's frequently depicted in fairy tales associated with fairy rings, the mystical circles of mushrooms I was talking about before, that are believed to be made by dancing fairies or other supernatural beings. It appears in children's stories, such as in Alice in Wonderland, where mushrooms play a role in Alice's adventure, symbolizing transformation and altered perceptions. The distinctive red and white color makes it an iconic mushroom, often appearing in illustrations and as a visual shorthand for the magical or other worldly in popular culture,

Unknown Speaker 12:41
yeah, and especially these days, if you kind of look around, you're gonna see this mushroom kind of everywhere. And I'm pretty sure that I have at least five rolls of Christmas wrapping paper with this mushroom on them. So how much of the fly Garrick is actually needed to feel these altered trance like states? Yeah. Well,

Unknown Speaker 12:58
first of all, we always try to start this off by saying this is illegal. Don't pick these. Don't do these. But the effect of Amino mascara is really like all things the devil's in the dose, dose dependent. And so not all mushrooms have the same and a lot of people report that they'll eat large amounts of this and get nothing. So even some fairy rings themselves, all the mushrooms have nothing where others have really a high amount. So typically, the dose of muscamilla is about five milligrams to 15 milligrams, with one gram of dried Amanita muscaria containing up to 15 milligrams of Musca Mal and something that people don't talk about, but most people that use this more than drying, they'll roast them over a fire. And so by roasting the most Musk all over the fire, they'll denature that ibotinic acid, and then you need even less. So a low dose is about one to five milligrams of musk. Mal mild sedation occurs here, some mood changes. Moderate dose, five to 10 feelings of relaxation, increase, euphoria, dissociation from the body, potentially perceptual changes. But these perceptual changes really come at that higher, 10 to 15 milligram dose. Also a drowsiness seems to come along online with the higher doses, and then definitely visual and auditory hallucination at the same time, at the medium to these higher doses, strong dissociation, nausea, vomiting are very common, very high doses, this is a toxic people do have problems with this compound, 15 and 20 milligrams and above, prolonged hallucinations, loss of awareness, again, ataxia and twitching because of the muscarinic receptors that are being activated, fear, anxiety, strong sedation, sleep, loss of consciousness. These are all things that happen at higher dose and at even high enough doses, the compound becomes super, super dangerous, right? This is a neurotoxin where people can have convulsions and even seizures.

Unknown Speaker 14:59
Yeah. So it seems like there are a lot of variables that play into how, you know, a different mushroom might induce these effects in people, and even, like scouring online, I saw a ton of different reports from different mycologists and different people. So can you tell me a little more about the factors that would influence a person's response to fly agaric.

Unknown Speaker 15:21
Yeah. So several factors influence how an individual might respond to any particular dose, like Dr Hines was saying, drying the mushrooms and while cooking or boiling them can change the amount of ibotinic acid that's converted to Musk Amol, which will alter the psychoactive effects. And people usually dry the mushrooms first, which will reduce the amount of hypotinic acid, and then you have individual sensitivity, which is true for any drug. People vary in their tolerance, so some individuals may experience intense effects from a low dose, while others may require a higher dose. So you really don't know how you're going to respond to it, set and setting is really important with any psychedelic the mental state of the user in the environment in which the mushrooms are consumed play a significant role in shaping the experience. So you'd probably want to be in calm, familiar settings, which would probably lead to a more positive experience, whereas a chaotic or stressful environment can exacerbate confusion or anxiety. And then there's toxicity concerns. While Amanita muscaria is generally not considered lethal at the typical psychoactive doses, higher doses can cause toxic effects, such as excessive salivation, sweating, tremors, convulsions, long term and or repeated use is not advisable due to the risk of toxicity and neurotoxic effects which is coming from the ibotinic acid, from all that glutamate, while direct deaths are rare, misidentifying the mushroom with other more toxic species can be fatal, so proper identification is crucial if you're foraging. There's a report from the CDC that during 2016 around 1328 emergency department visits and 100 hospitalizations were associated with accidental poisonous mushroom ingestion. And

Unknown Speaker 17:13
I want to weigh in on that. This is something actually I'm on a committee right now that we have a lot of problems with. So if you take any dose of psychedelic, right? And you don't like how you're feeling. Is that poisonous? No, well, I don't know. That's a big question, right? So if, if you're having an adverse mental health effect, you know, typical PK, admi pharmacological events are not really online, your liver isn't having problems. But you could say, oh, I'm poisoned by this. So a lot of these, you know, healthcare situations where people show up in the R and say they're being poisoned. It really depends on your definition of what poison is.

Unknown Speaker 17:51
Yeah, that's what I was just gonna ask too. Like, if you looked up the term the poison in the dictionary, it probably says something. But drug use in general, whether it's mushrooms or alcohol, has different connotations of what poisoning the body is absolutely

Unknown Speaker 18:08
and I think toxicity is a word that I prefer. And the big one, because I'm a nerd, is LP 50. So how much of this does it take that a lot of people kind of die like that's a good indicator of both dose and severity and poisoning,

Unknown Speaker 18:22
yeah. And, I think just general knowledge too, about what people are taking factors into this, because in this actual report, they don't even mention the word amandita mascara. They only mentioned this death cat mushroom. So who really knows what they're taking absolutely, definitely. So Missy, could you tell me a little bit more about the onset and duration of the effects of this mushroom.

Unknown Speaker 18:41
Yeah, so the effects of Amanita muscaria, they typically begin between 30 to 120 minutes after ingesting them, depending on the factors like the preparation method, whether you dried the mushrooms or they're fresh and the individuals metabolism effects usually peak within two to three hours after onset, and they can last anywhere from six to eight hours, although some lingering sedative effects may persist. So depending on the dose, the entire experience can last anywhere from four to 10 hours, and higher doses can lead to prolonged states of drowsiness or unconsciousness that can go even beyond 12 hours.

Unknown Speaker 19:19
Okay, so is it actually possible to become addicted to this mushroom? Well, the

Unknown Speaker 19:25
potential for addiction for ammonia to muscari is generally considered beyond low compared to other substances, especially those as well known capacity dependence, like the opioids, stimulants, alcohol, it doesn't exhibit any addictive properties that I'm aware of, or, you know, really triggering what we need the mesolimbic system that dopamine. This is all GABA, a little bit of serotonin, a little bit of glutamate. So really the lack of dopaminergic stimulation, because muscle primarily acts on GABA, a receptors as an Agnus, induces sedation, hypnosis, a. Dissociative effect, all kinds of other things. So it really doesn't have any significant addictive properties, like cocaine, nicotine and alcohol would and since it doesn't engage dopamine at all, compulsion to use it is even lower on top of that. You know, I think a big thing, as we mentioned, a lot of people have problems with Amanita with their guts, right? A lot of people start throwing up. So these are some of the unpleasant side effects. And so these common negative side effects also have things like nausea, drowsiness, confusion, muscle twitching. Doesn't really make a person say, Hey, I did that on Friday. I want to do that on Saturday. In some cases, the experiences by these, like the hallucinations, also can discourage, really, that habitual use. And although, you know, there isn't a lot of science, this is one thing. When I was digging that I really thought there would be more on and I was surprised to find out there's super limited evidence suggesting any tolerance, or not tolerance or physical dependence on this, but to me, that kind of lets me know that it probably isn't. It's not saying we it isn't, but there's no evidence there, and nobody's really researched that, and historical

Unknown Speaker 21:10
views really fits with this, like we don't see that it's historically been a compulsive relationship with Amanita muscaria. There's no evidence to suggest that traditional users became addicted to the mushroom as its consumption was often tied to specific ceremonies or spiritual practices. Modern recreational users of Amanita muscaria also tend to use it sporadically, often out of curiosity or for experimenting with altered states of consciousness, rather than for continuous or compulsive use, while physical addiction to emanate a muscaria is rare. It is possible for someone to develop a psychological dependence on the mushroom, which can occur when someone feels a compulsive need to use it to escape reality, experience altered states or explore their consciousness. However, this type of psychological dependence is still considered to be a lot less common with this species of mushroom compared to other types of drugs.

Unknown Speaker 22:06
Okay, so are there actually any potential clinical treatment or research utility for Amanita?

Unknown Speaker 22:13
Yeah, so Musk itself and tibic acid are not used directly in clinical treatments because they have a lot of toxic side effects. You know, they serve valuable tools for neurological research in a lot of brain slice physiology. I've asked actually put a lot of muskell on muscum, all, however you want to say it, but really not used clinically, because those side effects are pretty toxic. And there's a whole bunch of articles by river elinis and others, looking at the classical neurochemical Musk Mal, what people tried to use it for, and how they did this, a 2024 article that's really cool, that covers the history, chemistry and pharmacology of that compound, Musk well and GABA a there's a little bit of research showing that GABAergic neurotransmission really need some of this muscular and studies like epilepsy anxiety wouldn't be facilitated. We wouldn't find all the GABA drugs if it wasn't for muscly. So it's hard for me to say it has no use, because it's used as a tool to understand other drugs. Ipitinic acid, yeah, that's just an exciting toxic agent, right? So I actually, in my masters, used a lot of ipitinic acid. It just makes lesions really big holes in your brain. So again, when we say this stuff is excitotoxic, we mean it. There are also models where we use muskool in Parkinson's disease to look at, again, how increase increased gabanergic activity can counteract the overactive excitatory circuits that are present in Parkinson's disease.

Unknown Speaker 23:50
Okay, so kind of moving beyond that, I see that there's a lot of content on the internet about people foraging for mushrooms. So outside of the research lab, people are picking up these mushrooms. Is this legal? And how are these mushrooms scheduled? According to the DEA, so the

Unknown Speaker 24:10
legality of Amanita muscaria varies widely depending on the country and region you're in. Unlike psilocybin containing mushrooms, Amanita muscaria is not typically a scheduled drug in most countries, meaning, is often less regulated. However, the legal status of growing, foraging or possessing the mushroom can differ depending on local laws. That's really surprising to me. When we're talking about the toxic effects that we were just getting into.

Unknown Speaker 24:35
There's actually a lot on these things to think about in Michael Pollan's book, Love it or hate it, goes into this lot you can actually grow opium poppies in your backyard and get the seats. It's not illegal. Cut them, do anything with them, process them, schedule one. And so these really fall into that they're everywhere. You can't make them illegal because they grow in the Pacific Northwest, everywhere, but it becomes the ACT mostly of distribution. So you drive a whole bunch. And start selling them. That is super illegal, but

Unknown Speaker 25:02
to just have psilocybin, like to just grow it in your house, would that be illegal? Well,

Unknown Speaker 25:08
so I'm not a lawyer, but yes, that would be illegal. Because if it was, let's say, on your lawn, in your backyard, and it was there, naturally, that's not illegal. But it's pretty hard for you to take a package of Uncle Ben's rice, put some spores in it, and start growing it. We know that you did that, but again, it the big illegal part that people are worried about is you start processing bunch of those. So yes, it's illegal to the spores are legal, but then as soon as you grow them with intent, then it becomes illegal, okay, don't grow drugs,

Unknown Speaker 25:42
yeah. Well, to get back more into how the DEA sees Amanita muscaria in the US, it's not classified as a controlled substance under the controlled substance act, meaning it's not illegal on a federal level to possess, grow or forage it. But while it's not federally regulated, some states may have specific laws or ordinances that prohibit or restrict its use, sale or distribution. Some companies in the US sell Amanita muscaria products such as dried mushrooms or tinctures, which are generally legal as long as they do not make medical claims. In Nevada, Amanita muscaria is fully legal without limits on product Type, Product strength, purchase amount or possession amount. In the UK, the United Kingdom, Amanita muscaria is not listed as Class A, B or C drug under the misuse of drugs acts. So it is legal to possess, however, selling it, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 26:36
so it's not legal. I have to correct you on that. So what you're getting confused here is that Nevada says it's not illegal, but remember, the Feds still say it's illegal. So it's kind of like cannabis right now. You can buy cannabis in Nevada that's legal in Nevada, but federally, cannabis is illegal. So it's kind of one of these weird state versus other things. So don't buy drugs, don't grow drugs probably the best way to be

Unknown Speaker 27:02
so with that, thank you both for the insightful discussion today. I learned a lot about fly agark and mushrooms in general, and how there is much more to it than the magical reputation that precedes it.

Unknown Speaker 27:14
Thanks for listening to the chemical collective to get your weekly dose of Drug Facts while dispelling fiction. Ba,

Transcribed by https://otter.ai